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Post by hannahmichalek14 on Apr 11, 2013 18:30:15 GMT -5
I do see wills point in this discussion of how her " sob story" can attract others to feel bad for her and take away for the message of the film. I also do feel as though the personal story made alot of us connect more with her feelings and help us to understand what difficultys she was going through. If someone was just giving facts about abortion, not alot of the students would pay attention. With stacys personal story, i know at least for me, it made me want to connect with her and i could see her pain in her tears after the procedure was over. Answering jamies question, i think that without the use of stacy and her personal story, people would not understand her past and would quickly put down her choice of abortion. Her story of her abusive boyfriend and other troubles show why she cant have the baby. Even though she could have used other options such as adoption, she chose what was best for her.
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Post by colleenclifford on Apr 11, 2013 20:38:14 GMT -5
Jamie that is a great question because I see myself pulling both ways. Because we got to see her story for me it became acceptable to abort the baby but if I hadnt seen the movie I would probably be leaning towards having the baby. This is important because it shows you how important the movie was to see her life before we made a decision about her.
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Post by Mr. Daniel on Apr 12, 2013 17:18:19 GMT -5
[This conversation is going very well. The disagreement that Will introduced into this thread helped liven the conversation, and people have really been responding to the questions he posed. Another fantastic thing going on here is how the argument has developed and changed. Jamie's post is a good example of how the conversation gets to a point where the question you are asking is no longer the same as the question I posed at the beginning.
It's usually the mark of a good discussion that the comments at the end of the thread are not answering the same kinds of questions as those at the beginning of the thread. Keep it up here, guys.]
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WillL
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Post by WillL on Apr 12, 2013 22:28:20 GMT -5
Wow it looks like many comments have been made since I last looked. First, Gieriet, I believe if Stacy delivered the baby into a broken world that is similar to hers, she still gives the child a chance to thrive. Often we hear stories of rags to riches---who says this child could not have hat luck. By killing the baby in the womb, Stacy terminates all possibility the baby has for life. I don't remember Stacy considering adoption for the baby or giving it to her parents to care for. She only knew one choice and that was the easy choice. What harm would it have been for her if she carried the baby for 9 months....morning sickness, cramps, a more structured lifestyle; she could have chosen to never see the baby after birth. But no, she decided that 9 months was too long for her. So to answer your question, Gieriet, which is a very good one, I do think terminating life is far worse than giving the baby at least a chance to like even if it is in a chaotic world. Next, Jamie-- I agree that all aspects of the story must be heard before judgment. Yes she was pregnant with her best friend's child but she made the choice to have sex, an act which can have many consequences. I think Stacy is immature and unable to accept the consequences of an action she committed. She is like a kid in class who misbehaves and gets others in trouble too because he isn't willing to step up and accept responsibility. Her abuse in the past has drawn many people to ignore the question of morality. Of course I feel bad for her in the fact that she has had a rough past but again that doesn't act as an excuse for the future. Don't take this too seriously but a comparison could be to Bruce Wayne in Batman begins whose father was killed. Instead of mourning his father, he takes a step in the wrong direction by plotting to kill the murderer. His past was bad, sure, but he almost ruined his future too. I HAVE to disagree with you when you say she was thinking clearly. I don't think she was thinking clearly in the least. It didnt appear as if she sought anyone else's opinion about the morality of the operation but rather only took a path she deemed correct at the time. Like you said, she was full of emotion after carrying 5 kids, being abused, and having depression; no way after that could her mind have been clear. Finally, she didn't have to take care of the child-----she just had to bear it for 9 months. Hannah, solid points but what makes the abortion the best choice for her. Finally, I just want to point out this. Although Stacy aborted the baby at such an early stage and it didn't appear too significant, this is a picture of a 20 week baby that can be aborted. There is no way somebody can tell me this isn't life worth protecting.  |
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WillL
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Post by WillL on Apr 12, 2013 22:37:15 GMT -5
Also keep in mind the perspective of this movie. Here is a quote from a movie critic emphazing the pros and cons of the video
"The result is that the first abortion scene actually reflects Kaye’s views. His choices for how to edit the film and shape his exploration are affected. In this instance, the viewer’s first glance of an abortion procedure in the film is atypical of what most women experience when they decide to terminate a pregnancy. Further, Kaye does not provide a counterbalance of footage or interview to explain the myriad of reasons why women do decide to terminate a pregnancy after the first trimester. "
"Another aspect where Kaye falls very short is the lack of women experts who are featured in the film. There’s a whole slew of white men that are featured as experts that provide commentary, including Noam Chomsky. The most notable women that he interviews are Sarah Weddington, who argued Roe v. Wade in front of the Supreme Court; Frances Kissling, of Catholics for Choice; and Kate Michelman, former president of NARAL, but the commentary they provide is comparatively miniscule. "
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eryks
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Post by eryks on Apr 14, 2013 10:13:14 GMT -5
To begin, I have to say that I completely agree with what Will L said in response to Shawn's comment. Even though this woman has experienced hardships throughout her entire adult life. Yes, the woman could have put the baby up for adoption but decided not to, adding another life changing personal story to her life experience. At the same time, we must all take into account that we have NOT gone through something like this woman had to go through, she made a decision that she probably thought through a million times. In essence, the sob story that Shawn was referring to does draw away from the whole idea that this woman is about to experience an abortion, changing her life forever.
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eryks
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Post by eryks on Apr 14, 2013 10:31:29 GMT -5
Based off of what I saw in the video, I was also wondering whether anyone else was wondering why she couldn't of just gave up the child up for adoption, just like Will had made a point about in his previous response. Now, in response to Gieriet's comment... The idea of aborting a child seems to be the "easy way out" in my own opinion. This idea might mislead some people because I know that the experience of aborting a child is not and easy decision. But, no one should be subject to dying when they are completely defenseless. With the decision made by the woman in the movie, she disregards the fact that this child would have had the opportunity to one day be a fully comprehensive person just like Stacy, someone who could make their own decisions. While watching the movie, and after the abortion had taken place, it sure seemed as if Stacy was relieved that she had aborted the baby, then asking for a cigarette. To me, this was the most important part of the movie, until she broke down a few seconds later possibly feeling a sense of remorse and sadness. Now, a question that I would like to be strung off from this conversation is if you guys think that this scene resembled who Stacy really was or what she resembled as a person before or after the abortion took place?
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Post by peterjuska on Apr 14, 2013 12:39:29 GMT -5
Right now the video is talking about the lady's jaw being broken due to physical abuse. This makes us feel pity for the woman, yet it avoids the topic of abortion. It does make us see why she might want to have the abortion, however, it too strongly focuses on her personal life rather than the abortion. Peter, you also said that you think the stories "give us a better perspective on the issue." Are these two statements of yours inconsistent? To everyone else: Why does the movie spend so much time talking about her cracked jaw? Does that help us in any way to think about the issue of abortion? Well the cracked jaw is exactly why personal stories work. That story made us think for a second about the situation she was in, and ultimately made us go off topic from the topic of abortion. The filmmaker made sure that the story was inserted in order to use emotion to connect with the viewers. |
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Post by peterjuska on Apr 14, 2013 12:46:58 GMT -5
And also on the overall issue, I do not know whether or not abortion was the right thing to do for Stacy or not. I believe that it was her decision, and her decision only on whether she should have the abortion, which makes me pro-choice. I believe it's all a matter of opinion quite honestly, until you are put into that kind of situation. That's what it all comes down to.
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Post by isobellaantelis on Apr 14, 2013 13:56:04 GMT -5
I agree that Peter in that it is a matter of opinion until you are put in that situation. People, especially women in this case, should have the option of what they want to do with their body. Responding off of Wills point, being pregnant is not something that is easy to go through. It is not something a women should "just had to bear it for 9 months." Even though I have had no experience with this I know being pregnant is not easy and it is a very emotional experience. To ask her to carry the baby for 9 months against her will is unfair and she did the right by having the abortion.
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Post by daveonneb on Apr 14, 2013 14:23:52 GMT -5
To answer Jamie's question I would say some people would still approve and some would disapprove of it. The reason people may support Stacey's decision is because people will use evidence from her background and say it has been hard for her and people would say the best thing for her to do is to get the abortion for the sake of the mother and we see in the movie examples that she provides saying its not the right time for a child. Those examples were finances and just her life in general is not well. The counter argument would be don't get the abortion and that there are adoption agencies that could take the child but think of how the mother feels she is giving away her baby that she probably won't see again. These are the reasons that makes this such a black and white subject and that you can't necessarily find a gray area.
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Post by Mr. Daniel on Apr 14, 2013 14:45:54 GMT -5
Also keep in mind the perspective of this movie. Here is a quote from a movie critic emphazing the pros and cons of the video "The result is that the first abortion scene actually reflects Kaye’s views. His choices for how to edit the film and shape his exploration are affected. In this instance, the viewer’s first glance of an abortion procedure in the film is atypical of what most women experience when they decide to terminate a pregnancy. Further, Kaye does not provide a counterbalance of footage or interview to explain the myriad of reasons why women do decide to terminate a pregnancy after the first trimester. " "Another aspect where Kaye falls very short is the lack of women experts who are featured in the film. There’s a whole slew of white men that are featured as experts that provide commentary, including Noam Chomsky. The most notable women that he interviews are Sarah Weddington, who argued Roe v. Wade in front of the Supreme Court; Frances Kissling, of Catholics for Choice; and Kate Michelman, former president of NARAL, but the commentary they provide is comparatively miniscule. " Will, please provide the link when you provide quotes like this. Also, the clip I showed you was not the first abortion scene in the movie. The first abortion scene is the one that shows the limbs of the aborted baby. I think the critic you reference is actually arguing that the movie is too pro-life. |
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Post by laurens on Apr 14, 2013 16:21:51 GMT -5
I agree with Will's point that the woman is responsible for the outcome of her future. I also agree with the fact that the woman could have put the baby up for adoption, because I believe that all living things have the right to life. However, I disagree with his interpretation of the significance of the woman's backround in the video. I think that it enhances the woman's need for the abortion as a result of the circumstances the woman was a victim of. She obviously was in a rough relationship, and she thought that the abortion was a safer solution for her. I may be wrong, but I also inferred that she thought it would have been safer for the baby. But, the woman could have given the baby up for adoption, thereby granting it the right to life.
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Post by meganrux on Apr 14, 2013 18:33:20 GMT -5
Personal stories make the topics come to life more. A lot of times we only read the facts and only pay attention to the facts when we read or hear about serious topics. When a someone tells a personal story about these serious topics, such as abortion, it taps into our emotions which are necessary for fully understanding what these facts or procedures do to a person. For example, when the woman starts crying at the end we truly see the pain that this procedure can bring to women and how it is more than just an a procedure, it can greatly effect someone emotionally as well. I agree with Jennifer. Adding Stacy's personal story gives depth to the argument. The documentary furthers itself from solely information and becomes more empathetic. It allows the audience to feel connected to the issue therefore helping to define their own stance on the argument. By watching Stacy's experience from before, during, and after the abortion, the audience is much more connected to the process without actually having an abortion themselves. Similar to a though experiment we used in class to define our intuitions, showing Stacy's abortion helps us to experience and abortion without actually experiencing one therefore allowing us to realize our views on abortion. Since the video itself does not preach an opinion to the audience, it uses clips of conventions, interviews, etc. to allow the audience to decide for themselves. Watching Stacy's abortion also helps the audience to define their stance because it allows the audience to see all that plays into an abortion and, like a thought experiment, find their own beliefs. |
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Post by jamiewright on Apr 14, 2013 18:50:59 GMT -5
Will I think you make a great point. I totally see where you are coming from talking about how Stacy could be taken to be that way. This is where, I believe, the problem arises. The women's past is definitely a big part of how she got to the abortion center in the first place. Everyone has to think of Stacy's life all the way to the beginning even all the way to when her parents were children. Stacy might have been raised to think this way and know that she has to take care of herself first before anyone else. She could have been raised in a bad neighborhood and got with the wrong people and thats why she is thinking of getting the abortion. You never know, maybe just maybe, the man she was with could have made her get the abortion. I cant judge Stacy for getting the abortion, no one can but I have to think of what the baby's life would have been like if she did bear the child. Stacy abused drugs and could go back to the drugs while pregnant and harm the baby. Stacy said that she was finally going to live by herself after i believe 38 years. What if she installed something wrong or didn't get something insured and ends up having no money left over to take care of herself and the baby properly. Maybe Stacy should have been more responsible but after living a life with so much evil and problems you start to just take care of yourself first before anyone else.
Lauren I agree with your statement about "it enhances the woman's need for the abortion as a result of the circumstances the woman was a victim of." but your statement about having the baby being put up for adoption would be a great reason and way not to have an abortion and save the baby but in Stacy's case I don't think she would be able to take care of herself well enough to enough hold the baby in her womb. There would be so many incidents she could catch herself in to where it puts her and the baby in harms way.
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